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Scary, frightening stuff PING!

Regarding Mormons, they have a list of cautions:

“Mormons won’t tell you that all their so-called scriptures such as the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants, and even their official ‘Mormon Doctrine’ statements contradict each other…”

“Mormons won’t tell you that the reason the Book of Mormon has no maps is because there is not one scrap of archaeological evidence to support it!”

“Mormons won’t tell you that their prophet Joseph Smith was heavily involved in the occult when he founded Mormonism.”

“Mormons won’t tell you that that they encourage visitations from dead relatives from the ‘spirit world,’ a practice forbidden in the Bible. (Deuteronomy 18:10- 12.)”
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c13:9 “But be on your guard; for they will deliver you to the courts, and you will be flogged in the synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them.
d13:10 “And the gospel must first be preached to all the nations.
13:11 “And when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not be anxious beforehand about what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour; for it is not you who speak, but it is the Holy Spirit.
13:12 “And brother will deliver brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and have them put to death.
13:13 “And you will be hated by all on account of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved.

So much for Free Speech in Canada.

So it's OK for the JW's to say things like that, but if someone corrects them, it's hate.

Okaaayyy.

Looks like Canada is ready for an outbreak of house churches.

They proposed a “hate” bill a few years ago that was so broad the Bible would have been legally hate material. At the last minute they amended it for the Bible and passed the rest.

This article is misleading.

Macgregor Ministries was not shut down because of free speech , they simply had to start paying taxes. They are not a church and their primary purpose is to attack Christian denominations that do not fit in with their interpretation of Christianity.

They sell books, CD’s, cassettes and videos and publicity is good for sales. The concocted sympathy is priceless

The Government of Canada did not shut them down , as they claim , only withdrew their charitable status.

Thanks for the clarification.

Watch out America indeed. Coming to a country near you...

I have no sympathy for these people. They should thank their lucky stars they weren’t taken before one of the Human Rights Commissions - then they would really be screwed - all it takes is one person to be OFFENDED, then they’re in a world of pain.

As a Mormon, I find their bigoted rantings and outright lies and misrepresentations of my faith offensive. When living in Canada, I was tempted to file charges against them. Free speech is one thing - I always support it. What I intensely dislike are the lies and slander. “Thou shall NOT bear false witness against thy neighbor.” Who do these people think they are? Who and what gives them the right to lie and misrepresent others? Why can’t there be consequences for their actions?

Sure, Canadian laws are different than America’s, and the US is moving towards a Canadian-style restriction on free speech. Regardless, the whining that they are prevented from lying and misrepresenting the true beliefs of other religions is really grating. Sure, you CAN lie about others, but you should be held liable when you do so.

Not one here on Free Republic would enjoy having his or her faith lied about, or be personally slandered; why then demand people, like these bigots, have the right to do it to others, just because their targets may be Mormon or Jehovah’s Witnesses? Today it’s us who are victimized, and if you don’t speak up against the practice, tomorrow it’ll be you. Think about it.

Frankly, I find it insane American law allows people to say the worst lies and misrepresentations about others as long as the target is a “public organization” or a “public figure.” That, to me, is not free speech but the abuse of it. One should be held accountable for deliberately and knowingly lying about others, be it the military, religion of others, movie star, politician, or regular guy across the street.

Canada is going down the drain.

“why then demand people, like these bigots, have the right to do it to others,”

Its called freedom of religion and freedom of speech.

the govt has NO basis for getting involved OR TAXING these groups.

“Free speech is only really offensive if it’s true.”

Sorry, I disagree. Free speech is only really offensive if it is used to deliberately lie and misrepresent the true words, beliefs, and character of others.

I support and uphold the principle of free speech, but it does NOT give people the right to use it to deliberately, and especially unjustly, harm others. You cannot yell, “FIRE!” in a crowded movie theater. You cannot tell your neighbors the guy who moved across the street is a violent child molester if he isn’t. You cannot claim your date tried to rape you if he didn’t. Neither should you have the right to misrepresent the true beliefs of others.

Haven’t we learned anything from history? The early Christians were slaughtered by the thousands due to false witnesses. Over 6 million Jews were exterminated due to lies that corrupted the soul of Europeans. Over 6000 Mormons died in the US in the 19th century because of lies against the faith. Blacks were kept in slavery because of the lie that they weren’t human, deserving all the rights due to whites.

There are, and should be, limits to free speech.

It's just a matter of time until the US follows Canada down that same path. The overt hostility toward biblical Christianity in the liberal media, most higher education institutions, and the government school systems has been obvious for years and now it's spreading to government and the public in general. If bible prophecy is to become reality, and that's as sure and certain as the sun rising tomorrow, the US will either become as hostile to and oppressive of biblical Christianity as Saudi Arabia is today or eventually cease to exist as a nation. AntiChrist's dictatorship will be global, and simply believing the gospel of Christ and accepting it by faith in Him will be the most serious crime any individual can commit.

The irony is that organized religion acting under the authority of AntiChrist's sidekick the false prophet will be the tool AntiChrist uses to prosecute biblical Christianity. IMHO the seeds of that false version of Christianity are now germinating in the World Council of Churches and it's affiliated US denominational structure that denies the divine inspiration of holy scripture and tailors it's doctrines and teaching to suit it's liberal social/political agenda.

Wrongo.

1. Everyone who earns a living is obligated to pay taxes in Canada. Nonprofit charitable organizations are exempted, but the criteria must be adhered to. Lying and misrepresenting the true beliefs of others does not fall under the scope of a charitable organization, resulting in the revocation of their tax-exempt status. They CAN be penalized by Revenue Canada for misrepresentation - they should be careful. Back taxes, penalties, and interest can be a real burden.

2. These people made themselves an authority by attacking other religions instead of promoting their own. IOW, instead of focusing on telling people what they’re about and why they’re true; they decided to tell people about other religions and why they’re false.

Some “Christians” indeed. What Would Jesus Do?

The answer to false speech is true speech, not government supervised speech. We can't trust you not to abuse the power to limit speech, and you can't trust us.

Shhh.....You're spoiling the fun.

Think about what you’re saying! You can’t seriously tell me the government has no right to punish “false speech” that results in harm to others.

So, no punishment should be done against those whose “speech” resulted in harm, even death, to others?

How far are you willing to bring this exalted notion of the right to “free speech” without consequences? After your son is beaten to death by an enraged mob just because someone falsely accused him of molesting a child from their family?

Lunacy ...

Maybe it’s time for Canada to start breaking up into small countries. After that the US can too.

Well, its not as if they were preaching, love, understanding and brotherhood like the muslims or black separatists.

/sarcasm off/

My faith, which is New Testament Christianity untainted by any false cult theology, is lied about and slandered every day in the US and around the world. I expect that and would be concerned if it wasn't happening because Jesus Himself said that it would be if it is true to His gospel. I don't demand that it's slanderers and accusers in other religions or cults be shut down or prosecuted by government, and neither do the leaders of my church's denomination. Freedom to believe and practice any religion which doesn't do physical harm to other people is one of the basic liberties our Constitution supposedly protects.

Consider this before you start demanding government protection for your religion from slander and misrepresentation. If government can shut down and/or prosecute my church because some people don't like what it teaches and practices, then it can shut your religion down as well if and when it's teaching is also declared to be offensive.

But don't you believe

The Mormon Church is the only true church on the face of the earth, all other churches are part of the great apostasy?

Thanks for the explanation. I could not believe this.

Shhh.....You’re spoiling the fun.

I don’t think it makes much difference . On this thread the truth is no defence. (where have we heard that one before?). They’re off and running on an different tangent.:) .

btw , You and my fellow Canadians might want to check this out , I think we’re winning.

*Next Tuesday, at the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal in Ottawa, one of Canada’s most prominent white supremacist propagandists, backed by the legal team that defended Holocaust-denier Ernst Zundel, will put the country’s entire human rights bureaucracy on the witness stand

*The curious thing about the hearing, which will make it a crucial moment in the history of Canadian human rights law, is that Mr. Lemire, the last president of the now defunct neo-Nazi Heritage Front, enjoys the qualified support of a Liberal MP, PEN Canada, the Canadian Civil Liberties Association — even a leader of B’nai Brith Canada

http://www.nationalpost.com/story-printer.html?id=391873

Just how was the organization causing harm to others? Emotional discomfort and anger maybe, but not physical or financial harm.

And even if it was causing financial or emotional harm, there are libel and slander laws that allow civil lawsuits against it if it were operating in the US. Civil suits do not constitute government persecution of religious organizations like the Canadian hate crime laws do.

Free speech usually offends someone, somehow, somewhere, and that's the primary reason it's protected by the Constitution. Because many people, even many freedom loving Americans like you probably are, would try to suppress or censor anything in speech or print they consider to be offensive or uncomfortable to themselves or their group.

Sure, but we don’t go around attacking other religions. We don’t publish booklets, magazines, pamphlets, books, videos, and other paraphernalia whose SOLE purpose is to make other religions look bad. We especially do not lie or misrepresent the true beliefs of other faiths.

There is an enormous difference between believing one’s religion is the only true church on the earth from demonizing other belief systems.

Lastly, a clarification of the Mormon stance is needed.

1. To us Mormons, when we say we believe our church is the “only true church” we mean it is the only church with genuine authority from God. Thus, its baptisms, sealings, and other ordinances performed on earth are recognized by God as valid and binding in heaven. It does not mean “sole possessor of truth with all others having only falsehoods.” We believe all faiths have parts of “truth” within them. We Mormons are OBLIGATED to seek and accept “Truth” regardless of the source (be it mathematics, physics, etc.).

2. The great “Apostasy” was the first century loss of genuine authority within the Christian church at the death of the Apostles. It does not mean there weren’t any Christians after the disappearance of the Apostles. It does not mean only Mormons go to heaven (regardless of what South Park says). It does not mean members of other Christian denominations aren’t deserving of Salvation.

3. Mormonism’s eschatology has the existence of multiple “heavens” with hell as a temporary place of punishment prior to the Resurrection (and Paradise as a temporary place of peace where people are given a chance to accept Christ and his gospel). This is marked contrast with the old “Heaven-Hell” dichotomy or the “Heaven-Purgatory-Hell” tripartite. Thus, Mormonism believes righteous Christians who never became Mormon, whether on earth or after death in Paradise, go to Heaven, where they enjoy eternal companionship with the glorified Christ in the “Terrestrial Kingdom.”

Sure, our tiered heavens grants superiority to those who fully accept Christ by joining his church and remaining faithful to the end, by going to the Celestial Kingdom, where some are exalted into replicas of the glorified Christ. Compared to the traditional Christian, “If you don’t belong to my church and believe what I believe, you’re going to be tortured in hell for all eternity”; it is much more humane and decent.

Easy. They harmed all the religions they attacked by causing people to either leave the faith or not join it. In addition, they crossed the line when they used outright lies and misrepresentations.

If this type of behavior is not nipped in the bud; it will inevitably lead to physical violence when people’s emotions are pushed to the limit. We can see this happening throughout history and even today in other countries.

As for American libel laws, don’t overlook the fact they have no bearing on public figures or public organizations (which is the category churches fall under). Thus, churches cannot win lawsuits where they are smeared. At least in Canada, they can seek justice using its anti-hate crime laws.

“As a Mormon, I find their bigoted rantings and outright lies and misrepresentations of my faith offensive. “

As do I find the bigoted rantings and outright lies and misrepresentations of Mormons offensive.

They may have been responsible for causing some people to rethink their moral choices and forsake their immoral lifestyles. That may be verboten in Canada, but not in the US, not yet anyway, and it illustrates one of the differences between the USA's constitutional republican form of government which protects free speech and Canada's leftover British form of government which obviously doesn't.

As a member of a once severely persecuted minority, how do you rationalize your support for a Canadian government that has power to decide what message your church can preach and what it can't? I don't anticipate a calm and rational answer, so I'm moving on to another thread before this one disintegrates into name calling.

Good. Me too.

Mormons aren’t better than anyone else. I have offended and been offended many times. I try to be better and try to be more Christ-like, but I’m nowhere near where I know Christ wants me to be.

One thing I will not do is lie about or misrepresent the beliefs of others. Feel free to verify this fact among the more than a thousand posts I’ve done on Free Republic.

What they may or may not have done outside of their slanderous attacks against other religions is besides the point and outside the scope of my objection to them.

I don’t want the government to have the right to tell my church what it can and cannot believe and what it can and cannot teach. What I do expect is for the government to have the power to penalize and punish ANYONE whose behavior or LYING words CAUSE harm to others.

This isn’t about hurt feelings or getting offended per se or about limiting freedom of religion or freedom of speech; it’s the use of DECEIT to forward an agenda that harms others.

Harming others is bad enough, but using lies to inflict it is even worse and must not be tolerated by anyone.

“Lying and misrepresenting the true beliefs... “

who the hell is the final determination on this?

sounds like communism to me - and again, the state has NO business getting into religious or private speech issues.

??? Why is this difficult? If a religion, like Mormonism, teaches they believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God and God incarnate; any claims by outsiders to the contrary is a lie or misrepresentation.

On a more personal note, IF you are a decent man and your neighbor spread rumors that you are actually a child molester; what will YOU do? Will you just take it and proclaim he has his free speech rights? Will you take action and bring him to court, or does the idea of filing a lawsuit against him “sounds like communism” to you?

I find it astonishing some people really don’t think things through - just because these bigots lied about us today doesn’t mean that someone will not lie about you tomorrow. What is important is we, as a decent society, not tolerate any form of bigotry and deceit, regardless of the motives.

The Mormon cult was started by a madman just as Islam was.

Mormons insult Christians.

The only ones who would say this are those who know their opponants are right so they seek to use the government to force their silence. My Bible says I am to preserve the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints. That means pointing out leaven for what it is and warning the saints to avoid it like the plague.

“actually a child molester; what will YOU do?”

making criminal charges and arguing about religion are two different things.

“When living in Canada, I was tempted to file charges against them”

Indeed. You are a scary man, Mr Watson, and your vindictive attitude speaks poorly of your church.

So, what you are saying is: if a "religion" like Christianity examines, and finds that Mormonism's actual teaching on its belief that how "Jesus Christ" became "the Son of God and God incarnate" (Achieving a Celestial Marriage, p. 129; Mormon Doctrine, pp. 546-547; 742) is false doctrine; and contrasting it with true and sound doctrine ((John 1:1, 14; 10:30; 14:9; Colossians 2:9; John 17:4, 5; Philippians 2:6-11; Matthew 1:18-23; Luke 1:34-35) is a lie, misrepresentation; slanderous; bigotry, etc.?

There is no free speech in Canada. It has been replaced by ‘hate speech’ laws.

“just because these bigots lied about us today doesn’t mean that someone will not lie about you tomorrow”

Big-E....

I got no serious beef with Mormons, or any other religion for that matter.

One thing the Mormons have is a tremendous organization with a knack for effectively providing aid to Mormons and non-Mormons alike - It is true Christian charity, without question.

You generally teach clean-living, and family values....it’s all good.

But Mormons rarely come clean about their religion like you - tiered heaven nonsense (just my opinion) and all that. That said, Mormons and their organization is profoundly good and productive in America, your theology however, is profoundly at odds with Christian theology - and it pisses some people off that Mormons like to call themselves Christians. It pisses some Christians that other Christians usurp the term “Christian” for themselves,too.

As for me, I think America is a far better place having the Mormon Church as part of our religious landscape.

But in the end, whatever you believe in, if it has meaning you have to make judgments of what is acceptable and what is not. These folks in Canada are a little more vocal than most - and surely push the boundaries of free speech, but near as I can tell, they aren’t persecuting or killing anyone.

If Mormonism has any value at all to its members, it can withstand criticism from non-Mormons. So far you’ve proven to be a pretty stubborn and productive lot - and I wish you and your religion good luck - even if (in my opinion) you have some pretty crazy stuff in your theology.

So just keep doing your thing, these guys will too, and so will the various adherents to whatever sects and groups, Christian or not. It IS the American way.

“Mormons insult Christians.”

So what are you going to do about it? Nothing, that’s what.

“So what are you going to do about it? Nothing, that’s what.”

What’s your point? I do something about it every day. Anytime I meet a wacho Mormon cultist I ensure that I have nothing to do with them, so, yes, I do actually do something about it everyday. I don’t employ them, I don’t befriend them.